Comments on: The sad state of the Lisp user community http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/ Eli Bendersky's personal website Thu, 08 Jan 2009 00:34:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Brian Wisti http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/comment-page-1/#comment-7152 Brian Wisti Sat, 11 Nov 2006 00:33:18 +0000 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/#comment-7152 I always thought it was just some hidden factor in usenet and irc. Posts which dominate either arena seem to revolve around casual personal conversations with no bearing on the claimed topic, and wild flaming of anybody who trolls, comments, or asks an actual question. Focused community sites like Perlmonks are incredibly handy because they make a special allowance for inane chitchat (the Chatterbox). Threads throughout the main body of the site stay on topic much more often than in the demented environment of usenet. There may have been a time when irc and newsgroups could be relied on consistently for helpful and informative posts, but that was over a long time before I showed up on the scene. I always thought it was just some hidden factor in usenet and irc. Posts which dominate either arena seem to revolve around casual personal conversations with no bearing on the claimed topic, and wild flaming of anybody who trolls, comments, or asks an actual question.

Focused community sites like Perlmonks are incredibly handy because they make a special allowance for inane chitchat (the Chatterbox). Threads throughout the main body of the site stay on topic much more often than in the demented environment of usenet.

There may have been a time when irc and newsgroups could be relied on consistently for helpful and informative posts, but that was over a long time before I showed up on the scene.

]]> By: Viljo http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/comment-page-1/#comment-5996 Viljo Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:22:55 +0000 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/#comment-5996 It's true that c.l.l. and #lisp have some problems, but as far as I have asked there something during my last 1.5 years of lisp studying, I've always got answers to my questions, even when they were very simple and newbie questions. It just seems that both c.l.l. and #lisp expect you to do your homework and read some docs and faq's. It’s true that c.l.l. and #lisp have some problems, but as far as I have asked there something during my last 1.5 years of lisp studying, I’ve always got answers to my questions, even when they were very simple and newbie questions. It just seems that both c.l.l. and #lisp expect you to do your homework and read some docs and faq’s.

]]> By: SimonTeW http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/comment-page-1/#comment-5988 SimonTeW Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:59:55 +0000 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/#comment-5988 Holy crap! Have you read that social-problems-of-lisp blog, listed above? Are they sociopaths, or what? By chance I've just read another blog that includes a checklist for how to tell if someone is an asshole. Here it is: http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2006/10/you_have_to_lov.html Reading it I had to laugh. It seemed to be written exactly with the guys from that social-problems-of-lisp blog in mind. Holy crap! Have you read that social-problems-of-lisp blog, listed above? Are they sociopaths, or what?

By chance I’ve just read another blog that includes a checklist for how to tell if someone is an asshole. Here it is:
http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2006/10/you_have_to_lov.html

Reading it I had to laugh. It seemed to be written exactly with the guys from that social-problems-of-lisp blog in mind.

]]> By: Doug http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/comment-page-1/#comment-5791 Doug Sat, 28 Oct 2006 19:44:25 +0000 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/#comment-5791 Reading skillet-thief's comment, too, you might be interested in this other person's post about Eric Raymond and the RTFM jerks: http://www.libervis.com/blogs/15/Jastiv/eric_raymond_and_the_rtfm_jerks Reading skillet-thief’s comment, too, you might be interested in this other person’s post about Eric Raymond and the RTFM jerks:
http://www.libervis.com/blogs/15/Jastiv/eric_raymond_and_the_rtfm_jerks

]]> By: Doug http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/comment-page-1/#comment-5790 Doug Sat, 28 Oct 2006 19:33:46 +0000 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/#comment-5790 You see this to a lesser extent on comp.lang.python as well. I was somewhat surprised to seeing it happening on Wikipedia, too. I think basically anywhere you see the word "troll" or "flamer" used, it's a good bet the community is not very useful or productive. And like you and Steve Yegge have said, it brings negative publicity to the thing that the community was built around (a programming language, an encyclopedia, etc.). These posts from Steve Yegge about the python vs. ruby communities and marketing is brilliant: http://www.cabochon.com/~stevey/blog-rants/anti-anti-hype.html http://www.cabochon.com/~stevey/blog-rants/bambi-meets-godzilla.html You see this to a lesser extent on comp.lang.python as well.
I was somewhat surprised to seeing it happening on Wikipedia, too.
I think basically anywhere you see the word “troll” or “flamer” used, it’s a good bet the community is not very useful or productive.
And like you and Steve Yegge have said, it brings negative publicity to the thing that the community was built around (a programming language, an encyclopedia, etc.).

These posts from Steve Yegge about the python vs. ruby communities and marketing is brilliant:
http://www.cabochon.com/~stevey/blog-rants/anti-anti-hype.html
http://www.cabochon.com/~stevey/blog-rants/bambi-meets-godzilla.html

]]> By: skillet-thief http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/comment-page-1/#comment-5777 skillet-thief Sat, 28 Oct 2006 14:56:38 +0000 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/#comment-5777 There may be more flame wars on c.l.lisp, but the Perl usenet group is far less friendly. There are several old hands on there that seem to spend most of their time saying RTFM (or rather RTFperldoc) and producing mutliple post threads about why a newbie shouldn't have asked a question in a particular way. This may be why Perlmonks is such a great place. All of the snideness stayed over on Usenet. For all of its flaws, c.l.lisp sems like a rather friendly place. There may be more flame wars on c.l.lisp, but the Perl usenet group is far less friendly. There are several old hands on there that seem to spend most of their time saying RTFM (or rather RTFperldoc) and producing mutliple post threads about why a newbie shouldn’t have asked a question in a particular way.

This may be why Perlmonks is such a great place. All of the snideness stayed over on Usenet.

For all of its flaws, c.l.lisp sems like a rather friendly place.

]]> By: Anonymous http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/comment-page-1/#comment-5745 Anonymous Sat, 28 Oct 2006 01:41:18 +0000 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/#comment-5745 Absurdity of the Day > He is an experienced programmer of the highest level - his wizardry is apparent from the serious discussions he took place in. This is probably what leads to his inflated sense of total and utter perfection. Absurdity of the Day

> He is an experienced programmer of the highest level - his wizardry is apparent from the serious discussions he took place in. This is probably what leads to his inflated sense of total and utter perfection.

]]> By: Tom http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/comment-page-1/#comment-5744 Tom Sat, 28 Oct 2006 01:36:12 +0000 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/#comment-5744 Couldn't help but chuckle when I read this. A few years ago I worked through SICP and got comfortable with Scheme. I was also looking at Python. (Never liked Perl. Guess I'm more of a "one way" kind of guy. So I never looking into the Perl user community.) Anyway, I lurked for a while on both c.l.python and c.l.lisp. The Python group was much like the Perl community you describe above. Even when there are *spirited* debates, they are usually civil and one rarely sees newbies getting dumped on. The Lisp group seemed more like a food fight. I was once trying to describe the difference to a friend and I said something like -- "Just go to c.l.lisp and do a search on 'Naggum'." Couldn’t help but chuckle when I read this. A few years ago I worked through SICP and got comfortable with Scheme. I was also looking at Python. (Never liked Perl. Guess I’m more of a “one way” kind of guy. So I never looking into the Perl user community.)

Anyway, I lurked for a while on both c.l.python and c.l.lisp. The Python group was much like the Perl community you describe above. Even when there are *spirited* debates, they are usually civil and one rarely sees newbies getting dumped on. The Lisp group seemed more like a food fight. I was once trying to describe the difference to a friend and I said something like — “Just go to c.l.lisp and do a search on ‘Naggum’.”

]]> By: Sharad Mohan http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/comment-page-1/#comment-5736 Sharad Mohan Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:14:42 +0000 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/#comment-5736 I am a beginner to Lisp, and I don't worry too much about the kind of issues that you have raised. I frequent the #lisp channel on IRC, the c.l.l newsgroup on Usenet or the www.cliki.net or www.common-lisp.net on www and the RSS feed from Planet lisp at planet.lisp.org/rss20.xml And neither have I been discouraged or let down there. In fact, there is something interesting every day. I use C++ professionally, and also dribble with Python for fun. But I quite enjoy the Lisp community. More than all this, I really really like the language and the immense power that it yields. Also there really is a simplistic mathematical beauty about it. The tools that there are in Lisp are unique and not very easy to build for other languages. And there is a good deal of quality open source projects to study from. There is little that I could ask for. You obviously don't have any common lisp effort to show about, and don't look like a person who looks at the brighter side of things. I am a beginner to Lisp, and I don’t worry too much about the kind of issues that you have raised. I frequent the #lisp channel on IRC, the c.l.l newsgroup on Usenet or the http://www.cliki.net or http://www.common-lisp.net on www and the RSS feed from Planet lisp at planet.lisp.org/rss20.xml And neither have I been discouraged or let down there. In fact, there is something interesting every day. I use C++ professionally, and also dribble with Python for fun. But I quite enjoy the Lisp community.

More than all this, I really really like the language and the immense power that it yields. Also there really is a simplistic mathematical beauty about it. The tools that there are in Lisp are unique and not very easy to build for other languages. And there is a good deal of quality open source projects to study from.

There is little that I could ask for.

You obviously don’t have any common lisp effort to show about, and don’t look like a person who looks at the brighter side of things.

]]> By: Kartik Agaram http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/comment-page-1/#comment-5723 Kartik Agaram Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:42:09 +0000 http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2006/10/27/the-sad-state-of-the-lisp-user-community/#comment-5723 This is an interesting premise. Can you point out examples where Erik Naggum showed close mindedness? Even if you can't, there's a point to the argument. Somebody like Erik Naggum may get away with a prickly writing style because of the content of his writing, but he also spawns imitators who copy his style rather than his substance. This is an interesting premise. Can you point out examples where Erik Naggum showed close mindedness?

Even if you can’t, there’s a point to the argument. Somebody like Erik Naggum may get away with a prickly writing style because of the content of his writing, but he also spawns imitators who copy his style rather than his substance.

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